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Memorable Correspondences

From time to time I receive correspondences that really leave me wondering. However, it would seem that some, who believe they abound in Biblical truth and who follow after false teachings, really have no idea what their arguments really sound like. I thought I'd start sharing some of my more memorable correspondences...

RE: Biblical Manhood vs. Knighthood [re article Knighthood = Manhood? ]

To: Seek God

Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 9:28 PM
Subject: Biblical Manhood vs. Knighthood

"As a woman, I do not expect you to understand, nor comprehend the importance of "manhood" rituals to young teenage boys who are in that most important transitioning period.  You said it yourself that our younger men are irresponsible, immature, and lazy, so why lambast a movement that has got men of faith all around the country excited about being a man and about teaching their boys how to be men?  So what if their view of the knights of old is romanticized!  If it gets fathers kicked into gear and gets them involved with their sons, then praise God!  You have no concept of what it means to be a man because, quite frankly, YOU ARE NOT A MAN." 

 "Men throughout history have conducted and established rituals for all types of stuff.  Adam, the first man, even had a sort of ceremony when he met Eve.  "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.  She shall be called Woman because she was taken out of Man."  As a young man of faith, eager to have sons of my own that I can teach how to be men of faith, I take your comments as ignorant and totally offbase.  No, a ritual is NOT necessary.  Ceremony for a young boy entering into manhood is not a MANDATORY action.  However, if it creates a bond between father and son; if it helps a father get a foothold in his son's life that he can use to shape him into a man of faith; if it helps a moral man become a Christian and a man of faith . . . who are you to criticize it?  You have no idea how important it is to men to be warriors, to have that warrior mentality, to feel as though they are mighty men of valour.  You are a woman and, therefore, do not understand these things, nor will you ever." 

"I would give ANYTHING to have had my father perform one of those rituals for me.  I wish that book would have come out when I was a boy entering into manhood.  Perhaps it would have kept my father from becoming as distant as he is now.  Perhaps it would have kept me from depression and suicidal thoughts and constant girl-chasing.  Perhaps things would have been different.  As far as your article is concerned, it was written in ignorance.  We are to put on the whole ARMOR of God.  Is that not warrior imagery?  In the Old Testament, there were warriors in ABUNDANCE.  David, the MAN after God's own heart, was a WARRIOR.  He THRILLED to the battle.  He EAGERLY fought and was a conqueror.  Second Corinthians 2:14 - Now thanks be unto God who always leads us in TRIUMPH in Christ . . . that's WARRIOR language.  Written by a man.  A man of the UTMOST faith, second only to Christ.  So, before you start trashing the current men's movement, take some time to read up on spiritual warfare and how to be a warrior in Christ." 

"One of the men's reviews of the book "Raising a Modern Day Knight" by Robert Lewis states:

"It characterizes a man who rejects passivity, accepts responsibility, leads courageously, and expects the greater reward-God's reward.
Second, it defines a Biblical code of conduct: loyalty (Hos 6:6), servant-leadership (Mat 20:26-27), kindness (Pro 19:22), humility (Phil 2:3), purity (1 Tim 4:12), honesty (Eph 4:25), self-discipline (1 Tim 4:7-8), excellence (1 Cor 9:24), integrity (Pro 10:9), and perseverance (Gal 6:9). Finally, it establishes a superior cause to work towards which can only be satisfied in Jesus Christ. By celebrating the stages of training with ceremony, a father reinforces the process. Through godly example, teachable moments, inspiring stories, and positive affirmations, a father helps his young knight discover a will to obey God, to employ God's gifts, and to respect women.

 "What in the world do you see wrong with that?  I know that it truly speaks to me and makes me want to be a BETTER man.  Tell you what . . . if you want your husband and your sons to be the opposite of all of these things, then continue to tear down your brothers in the Lord for trying to do something to change the course of their sons' lives.  You should be promoting and encouraging these men for taking a step of faith to try to teach their sons about biblical manhood.  If you will not encourage them, then please do not attack them.  You are tearing these men down for NO reason whatsoever.  You can't see the forest for the trees.  I encourage you to take a second look at the knighthood movement and see if the bigger picture is not more important than the things that you are attacking it for.  I forgive you for your article.  Hopefully, you will revise or remove it.  If not, then hey, we all make mistakes, right?"

MY Response to "Biblical Manhood vs. Knighthood":

Subject: RE: Biblical Manhood vs. Knighthood

In a nutshell, according to you, spiritual warfare is a "man's job", preferably a "knighted man" because he can't do it without the rituals to prove he's a man.

In keeping with your theology, putting on the whole armor of God, which is only for men, as they are to be the warriors, reads like this--even though we are not to change the Word of God 

10  Finally, my brethren, {men not women} be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 {men not women} Put on the whole armour of God, that ye {men not women} may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12  For we {men not women} wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13  Wherefore take unto you {men not women} the whole armour of God, that ye {men not women} may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14  {men not women} Stand therefore, having your loins girt {men not women} about with truth, and having on {men not women} the breastplate of righteousness;
15  And your feet {men not women} shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16  Above all, taking the shield of faith, {men not women} wherewith ye {men not women} shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17  And take the helmet of salvation, {men not women} and the sword of the Spirit, {men not women} which is the word of God:
18  {men not women} Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; 

Not only am I as a woman unable to put on the armor of God, as directed by God and "fight" the spiritual battle, but I can not have salvation, either.

Personally I think you missed this point---"Through godly example, teachable moments, inspiring stories, and positive affirmations, a father helps his young knight discover a will to obey God, to employ God's gifts, and to respect women."

From your "letter"... 

"Second Corinthians 2:14 - Now thanks be unto God who always leads us {men not women} in TRIUMPH in Christ . . . that's WARRIOR language.  Written by a man.  A man of the UTMOST faith, second only to Christ.  So, before you start trashing the current men's movement, take some time to read up on ..."

Personally I prefer to think that God calls men and woman to stand fast and put on the whole armor of God and live a victorious life in Christ. And applying all God's Word. But you follow whatever "knightly" doctrine you choose. We on the other hand will live for Christ and 1 Timothy 6:11  But thou, O man {and woman} of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Thanks for sharing. The article stands, as does our faith.

Fighting the good fight,

Vicky Dillen

------------

RE: Tongues, Charismatic Movement, Private prayer language, etc. See: Pentecostal , Shepherding, Charismatic Movements

From "Nancy"--correspondence over several weeks "then", with comments inserted on how she feels "now". "My response" was some of what I shared while she worked out her understandings.

Nancy -then-"....The article I started reading was the first one in your Pentecostal, Shepherding, & Charismatic Movements - Shepherds in Disguise or Wolves in Sheep's Clothing.  Of course, God kept the words of your post in front of my eyes since Sat - "If you obtained your beliefs about tongues, etc from people you now claim to be false, what does Jesus' teaching then mean to you?"  I have been spouting about a "little leaven works its way through the whole loaf theology" left and right lately - whew -physician heal thyself - God does have a sense of humor!!!..."

"....I am torn between 2 things.  Either I have truth or I don't.  If what I learned is from rotten fruit, then how do I know I have anything worth keeping - even if from my perspective it looks scriptural.  How do I know that I can discern the truth of what I read if under the influence of two false systems they have caused me to walk in complete deception.  When Paul was approached with the fact that someone who was not a believer was preaching Jesus, he said it didn't matter as long as Jesus was being preached.  This confuses me in light of the fact that if everything I learned is from those who only have rotten fruit, then my entire perception of the Scripts has come from bad fruit.  It would not make any difference at this point what the Scripts say - I may still be in delusion...."

My Response: If we desire things that are not in keeping with Biblical truth, we may get what we ask for, but it will never satisfy and will never be what God wants to give us.

Nancy you said God kept you from being affected by the charismatic manifestations. But before that, you wrote and said this to me:

"I jumped headlong into the charismatic movement and downed every doctrine as the infallible Truth of God.  I was into healing, prosperity, the name it and claim it bunch.  Hagin and Copeland were my fathers of the "faith" - I ate and drank everything they wrote and taught.  I went to 100's of charismatic meetings here in the area every chance I could get.  Many times I went down front to get "slain in the Spirit" and I would used to laugh and tell people I had more floor time that carpet layers."

My Response : So you were very much affected by it and very physically involved in it. In fact you were so believing that doctrine that you said this to me:

"I used to envy those around me who were feeling stuff and I thought I was missing out and maybe that God did not love me enough or feel I was worthy enough to receive those "gifts" from Him. "

My Response: That is fully charismatic doctrine. And envy of perceived spiritual gifts is not of God. Nancy you said:

"Let me clear up a little confusion here.  First of all my desire was not for the 9 gifts of the Spirit - those I knew from the beginning were as the Spirit wills.  I was speaking of the gifts of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit - like the baptism of fire, or shaking, or anointing of glory - those kinds of things.  Also, being slain in the Spirit was not for others like it was for me.  I never once received any physical manifestation.  Only a weakness in my legs and I would just let go and fall backwards and lay quietly until God told me to get up.  I believed this was of Him.  It is the same voice that I hear today.  If I thought that it wasn't Him I am hearing at this point, then there is nothing left of my life that is worth anything.  Every single decision I have made is based on what He tells me.  If I am in deception in this regard I am done for."

My Response: I think you have to come to the point with tongues with thinking of it as languages, that were according to Paul--a sign for the unbeliever--not the believer. That is a good way to start changing your understanding. What you are thinking of is in terms of charismatic interpretation and others would never come to that understanding.
 
Nancy you said-- "Having been so involved in it and not understanding how I could have witnessed the miracles, signs, and wonders, and how God's Spirit and evil spirits could work hand in hand."
 
My Response: But the Scriptures are very clear about that issue: 

Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Nancy you said:  "But God also said that if we asked for something He would give it according to His will.  That we would not receive false things, like a stone for bread, etc.  Just because the teachings came from those exhibiting bad fruit does not mean they are false teachings.  The motives of the heart are known to God, not to man.  If a false teacher tells me that I should worship God as much as possible, that is not a false teaching - it is the truth of the Scripts.  If I take everything I know about His Word and dump it because it came through someone who was false, I would be left with little.  The church is also false.  Yet God continues to use those in every camp, regardless of the fruit.  I am not saying that when you are discerning bad fruit you should stay and be deceived.   When God instructs me to go here or there or to listen to this one or that one, I believe it is for His purpose.  Today, I am walking in greater knowledge and it is not necessary for me to go from place to place anymore - He has opened by eyes too much to the deceptions around me.  I would gag at the thought of going to church any more.  But when I was a Spiritual baby, I had to learn from whoever God placed in my path.  I did not have a clue as to what being spiritual was.  I needed guidance.  The ones I got it from appeared to be correct and lined up with the Word.  As time went on, then yes, God began to show me the fallacies and I backed away from it all.  This was His grace.  I am not trying to whip out a grace card and lay it out there to cover up all my mistakes.  I have also learned to look for the fruit before I believe anything anymore - but that is because now His will is for me to be more mature and not be tossed about."

Nancy Now --COMMENT:  Looking back after a few months of coming out of my charismatic background, I realize that these statements were made while still being cleansed by the Holy Spirit and not understanding the total impact and meaning of  Jesus' Words. I was still in a state of denial.  As one lets the cleansing of His Word heal and restore, the Truth becomes clearer and clearer.  My perception that God uses false teachers/teachings to reveal His truth is as a friend of mine states: He does not give us a plate full of garbage to paw through looking for tidbits of edible food.  Again, the delusion of God using evil to teach us His Truth is flagrant error in all areas of man's theology [Matt 7:15-20]. Our responsibility, once coming into salvation, no matter how God provides the vehicle for that, is to search the Word without ceasing for His Truth in all things.  When Paul said that he was not bothered by how Jesus was preached, I believe he was referring to the message, but not the walk.  Again, God's Truth comes with diligent seeking and a heart bent towards Him.
 
My response then: Matthew 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:22  For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23  But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
 
2 Thessalonians 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The love of the truth starts with loving the truth in the Word of God.
God is more than able to give the gift of languages so that unbelievers can hear the wonderful things of God. But, and we see that many that go into missions have a gift for 'learning' languages rather than instantaneous like at Pentecost. 

Nancy you yourself stated that you started trying to speak in tongues and said some things BEFORE you then said the Holy Spirit gave you the gift. Can you find the Scripture that tells you, confirms to you, that is how the gift of languages was given and initiated?

"For many it was not necessary to speak a syllable or two and start to speak.  I was taught that is was as the Spirit wills.  That by opening up your mouth it was like starting up a car - and the Spirit would take over.  After that initial syllable, I have never, ever had to do that again.  I simply open my mouth and what I thought was the Holy Spirit began to speak.  Going about my work, usually did not give me time to listen to or try to speak anything in particular.  Sometimes I would just listen because it was so different than English.  Many times the words were not how we as Americans pronounce words.  I had often thought I spoke in Hebrew, Spanish, at times recognizing some of the words - they were words, not syllables."

MY response then: We're to forget the things of the past and move forward to the prize. Evaluate and make our election sure and then run the race according to the Word of God. There's no point trying to second guess what was and wasn't of God. You know that there can be no good come of false teachers--even if they throw in some Biblical truth. You can obtain that same truth from God's Word without their added deception.

Nancy Now COMMENT:  Again,  I would have to agree that the delusion I was under completely gave me the wrong perspective.  But then the enemy does come disguised as an angel of light.  At this point, I am only thankful beyond words that by His grace, to choose a brother and sister in Messiah to stand in the pathway and refuse to let me pass until the True Light of His Word began to melt and strip away that which held me captive to the enemy's schemes. 
       The deceptive teaching in the charismatic/full-gospel/Word of Faith [which I refer to as charis] venues gains a foothold by twisting the scriptures.  Satan is a master at this, knowing the Word expertly and using it to his advantage.
        One of the major passages used to either discredit tongues and to support it is 1 Corinthians 14.  When you look at from either a pro or con perspective you can prove what you want and only within the context of this passage, inaccuracies on both sides abound.  It is disconcerting that there really is little teaching on tongues in the New Testament.  1 Corinthians 14 has truly become a "bone of contention" among believers and has cause fierce battles on either side. 
       The charismatic movement hinges it's doctrine of personal prayer language on a couple of verses taken from this chapter.  To further complicate this issue, they take the other references of speaking in tongues in the book of Acts to support a personal prayer language and to support an erroneous doctrine of "evidence of the filling or baptism in the Holy Spirit" by the necessity of speaking in tongues.  This is perhaps like playing Russian roulette with God's Word.  The best way to approach the matter would be to go back to when the disciples were baptized in fire and given tongues - Acts 2. 
       In all 4 gospels, John the Baptist prophecies that Jesus will baptize with fire.  In Mark 16, Jesus speaks to the disciples just before ascending into heaven with the words that they will speak with new tongues, within the context of preaching and witnessing the gospel message.  Jesus also prophecies in Acts 1 that these disciples will be endued with power from on high to *preach the gospel*.  When we come to Acts 2 and the Holy Spirit comes as a rushing wind, appearing as tongues of fire above their heads and gives them utterance to speak in different languages, Peter clearly states that this was to fulfill Joel 2.  As shown through the book of Acts, many more receive this gifting. Never once is there any evidence that tongues is taught to someone, nor that one has to give the Holy Spirit a jump-start. 
       I believe as you read through Acts, the empowering of the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel is given by way of tongues for proclaiming the good news to the world in the languages of those that the disciples would be going to.  I also can see that when Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:18 that he speaks in tongues more than the Corinthians ["all of you"], it is not because he has a personal prayer language, but because he is preaching continually in areas of the world at that time without his knowledge of the various languages of those he would be sharing with.  As he said, tongues is a sign for the unbeliever.  How awesome and miraculous a gift like this to preach the miracle of salvation.  And the most excellent thing of all - it would be the Holy Spirit empowering him and giving him the gift at exactly the right time - not dependent on man's wisdom, but God's alone!
       As far as those texts that refer to praying in the Spirit, it is not a personal prayer language that is required or referred to.  I truly have come to see that it is simply Spirit-led prayer.  It has been my experience that when praying for someone and by allowing the Holy Spirit to give you the words to speak, this would be the evidence of praying in the Spirit.
       The question at this point:  have tongues/languages passed away?  I have heard of those who have spoken in a language they do not know and witnessed the gospel in today's time frame.  Again, this is as the Spirit wills.  Is it because these people are aware that languages are used for this purpose and therefore more readily accept it?  Who can know the ways, the mind, the purpose of our great and mighty God?  Does everything He does have to be explained in human terms or can we just allow Him to use those He chooses as He wills?"

Nancy then, you SAID- "When He says that something has to go - ... I do not question His instructions.  Not being a tongue talker is difficult.  It was a subconscious "habit" - I have to literally concentrate at times, not to speak it.  You have no idea what a huge part of my life it was."

My Response - If your tongues are habit, what Scripture affirms that is what it is supposed to be? Didn't you say that it's the Holy Spirit giving you utterance?... or perhaps not....

" The Scripts say that we should pray without ceasing.  I took this personally.  This meant I should either be praying in English - with my mind or in the Spirit.  So I trained myself to allow the Spirit to use my mouth at every possible moment.  Even those who have the gift of tongues and interpretation have the ability to turn it on and off.  It does not come over you like some force.  God will instruct you to pray in tongues and when to stop when you are operating in this particular gifting.  Again, never did I force words or make them up - I completely gave my mouth over to Him.  It was simple and an act of love on my part.

Nancy Now Comment:  This is a difficult area to venture into.  Is praying without ceasing a good habit?  Therefore I believed that I was only doing what God demanded of me.  I am grieved, however; because I perceived that in some way I needed to continue this "habit" in order to gain His approval.  In how many other areas of our lives do we strive to to "do something" for Him believing we have done God a favor?  By His grace alone - unmerited favor - does He accept us and love us, scanning and updating our hearts in regard to Him as to the "why" of our actions.

Vicky Now Comment--by "habit", the thought was that the 'tongues' Nancy was using was coming constantly, in her words, 24/7, and without inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but rather, by rote. Nancy later shared that as she was struggling with this issue, she literally had to clamp her hand over her mouth to keep from speaking these sounds, which were attempting to come out of her. She had previously stated she could control it, or it was only as the Holy Spirit led, but when trying not to speak it, to see if it was of God, she waged a spiritual battle of control over these sounds. She said it was physically painful to try to refrain.

Nancy you then said---"The thing I wanted the most was the baptism in the Holy Spirit.  Only 1 person laid hands on me for this and I did not receive tongues at that time.  I do understand now, that I did receive the filling of the Holy Spirit as some point, but then I believed I had not because I did not receive a prayer language.  It bothered me intensely.  I would weep and cry, praying for the gifting and then engaging the theology that I needed to reach out and take in faith.  ...  So I continued seeking the Lord, desperately trying to understand why He was not giving it to me.  After 3 months of this, one night I was sitting by myself and asking for it yet once again,  I began to speak a couple of syllables hoping/believing the Holy Spirit would take over."

My response: This is no different than described in the Cult that Snapped--you practiced tongues ... But let me ask you. What Scripture supports that as evidence of having received the gift of 'tongues'? Every other tongues speaker would likely say that is the same as what took place at Pentecost--but it is absolutely contrary to the Scriptural account of the Holy Spirit giving utterance to the disciples.

Nancy you said : "I guess I am not sure what you are getting at here.  I truly believed that the Spirit was giving me utterance.  As I said before I never made up words, and I never forced words to come out of my mouth after that initial time. Please forgive me if I appear to arguing with you - I am trying to give you an accurate picture of what I believed.  To me the scripts still teach it the way I have done it.  I cannot, at this point, find any other explanation for "praying in the Spirit"...."

MY response...."....After 3 months of this, one night I was sitting by myself and asking for it yet once again,  I began to speak a couple of syllables hoping/believing the Holy Spirit would take over....I never made up words..."

Nancy Now COMMENT:  When I read that tongues--not God given languages-- originally came from demonic culture saturated in witchcraft - I was sickened and grieved.  To think I had been practicing a demonic ritual threw me into tremendous revulsion and I had difficulty getting firm footing.  I had no problem weeping in repentance, but the guilt was a terrible weight.  It still frightens me to understand that the root teachings of this doctrine comes from such a heinous background.  Then, after reading how Victor Paul Wierwille of the cult, The Way International, "taught" the "receiving" of tongues in the same manner by forcing people to repeat syllables over and over, the same way in which I was taught, I was overcome with fear - abject terror that I had been speaking blasphemy towards my King.  This broke my heart and took away any possibility that I had been given a "gift" of the Holy Spirit.  

My question then became, why did God allow me to suffer this for 7 years?  The answer has come gently, but clearly as the months go by.  Sometimes He allows us to be in deception that we may come to know Him in greater degrees of the grace that He gives so abundantly.  In my deception, He remained faithful to me, never once leaving me or forsaking me.  Can one explain or fathom this kind of grace and love?  It is forever etched in my heart and mind.  I continually prayed for His Truth with all my heart.  

When His Truth faced me, I had a choice to accept or reject it based on my will.  His will was that I choose whom I would serve.  The pain was unbelievable.  The anger at the religious system that had brainwashed me was there in part, but it was aimed more at the enemy that anything.  Those that continue in this deception are ignorant and blind.  I can only thank Him for renewing and transforming me, clearly showing me the Truth of His Word.  I am also forever thankful that He has allowed me so many  opportunities to share this truth with others - as He places them in my life.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

My Now Response-- Nancy has since described her former charismatic/tongues beliefs as having been "under strong delusion."

1 Corinthians 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 Thessalonians 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24  Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it.

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